ray
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Post by ray on Jul 18, 2008 2:07:17 GMT
They're not the ones in the free presets are they? I don't have KPR's SAMPLES collection. But FM pianos are not my cup of tea either so judging by your description, unlikely to satisfy. David Foster's sound is certainly not my biscuit, scone nor bagel. :-) As Steve suggests, these styles of EP sounds are very remote from the original electric piano sound that they got their names from. Plus you can have so much variation from one Rhodes to another, and from one Wurly to another... you'll never please everybody... ... not with one or two programs and sample sets, no. The suggestion though is that there's a gap in the spectrum that could be filled by more EP programs, and some of us are still trying to find something to fill that gap.
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Post by Hollow Sun on Jul 18, 2008 15:03:00 GMT
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing the HS samples. Hey - no problem at all Ray. I was just a bit surprised. Exactly, I think we're on the same page here and hearing the same thing. Some people consider the hard, aggressive bark to be the signature of the Wurly "sound", and for those, the Fusion Wurli will happily satisfy. What I've been referring to as the "Supertramp" sound is exactly that - it characteristically relies on the "barking" sound achieved by hitting the keys hard..... And also, it may well be that the possibility is in there, but the programming isn't appropriate for achieving that taste. I may take some time to play with the raw multisamples at some point, but I'd love to hear other people's (more experienced) attempts at this. Because it's not a ROM-based sound, you can edit the raw multisamples' velocity range and save your own versions. Select Wurli 200 in SAMPLER and in the RANGE tab... Set Zones 3, 7, 11, 15, 19, 23, 27, 31, 35, 39, 43, 47, 51 and 55's VELOCITY HIGH value to 127. Set Zones 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52 and 56's VELOCITY LOW value to 127 as well. What you effectively done is remove the 'barking' hard sample. Save that edited multi-sample to a new location (so as not to overwrite the original) and use the new multi-sample in the Wurly 200 program. That may give you more of the mellower Wurli sound you're after. You can mess around with the velocity ranges of the other zones if you want in order to tailor the velocity to your taste and playing techniques. Steve
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christianrock
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Post by christianrock on Jul 18, 2008 15:39:55 GMT
They're not the ones in the free presets are they? I don't have KPR's SAMPLES collection. But FM pianos are not my cup of tea either so judging by your description, unlikely to satisfy. David Foster's sound is certainly not my biscuit, scone nor bagel. :-) As Steve suggests, these styles of EP sounds are very remote from the original electric piano sound that they got their names from. I did not mean at all that the KPR sampled EPs had anything to do with David Foster. I just mentioned him so you would know where my EP tastes lie - even if I get a classic EP sound from the 60s I'll probably mess around with it to bring it up to a more pop music setting. Probably not your case. KPR is Klaus Peter Rausch, he is all over this board, even posting here in this very thread He along with Steve (from Hollow Sun) are two of the most talented sound designers that you'll meet anywhere, and I'm so glad they are involved so heavily with the Fusion. Klaus's libraries are under the name of his company, Back in Time Records. Speaking about his EPs that I mentioned, you have to buy his 3 Sample collections that I mentioned in my thread. They are sold separately but aren't priced out of this world - you can get all 3 for about the price of a single Roland SRX card, and you get so much more. The three Rhodes he has are: Rhodes Suitcase 88, Rhodes 73 and Rhodes 73 Mk I (just two different 73 keyboards, I guess). He's also got a Wurly and a Clav D6 to be an alternative to what you got with Hollow Sun. I really like the Klaus Wurly, fits my style perfectly. But you should probably try to do what Steve mentioned to get a soft Wurly preset based on the Hollow Sun samples to see how you like it! You can check out BITR here: www.backintimerecords.de/bitr022.htm (unfortunately the samples 2 collection doesn't showcase its EP if I can remember, but 1 and 3 do). Plus you can have so much variation from one Rhodes to another, and from one Wurly to another... you'll never please everybody... ... not with one or two programs and sample sets, no. The suggestion though is that there's a gap in the spectrum that could be filled by more EP programs, and some of us are still trying to find something to fill that gap. That's why you need to hear KPR's EPs and that's why Steve should release an EPs package (hint hint!). And that's why SOMEONE please needs to release a full orchestra collection for the Fusion, I need real tremolo strings!
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Post by Hollow Sun on Jul 18, 2008 16:49:09 GMT
And that's why SOMEONE please needs to release a full orchestra collection for the Fusion, I need real tremolo strings! Quite happy to, Chris. I assume you'll stump up the $50,000 (at least) for its development - I may need more as the project progresses We could make the money back by selling the CDs at $299 a pop and we'd only need to sell 168 to make a bit of profit. Given that there's reluctance to buy my stuff at $55 (and others' work that is even cheaper), that could be a tall order! Unless you'd be happy to give it away for free Steve
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christianrock
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Post by christianrock on Jul 18, 2008 16:59:13 GMT
I realize you're not a big operation... and it's a shame that Alesis dropped the Fusion, because a follow-up model would certainly have better orchestral sounds. So that's why I said "someone", because I know there's orchestral libraries out there, and someone could port it to the Fusion. But of course I'm ignorant of the numbers - I don't know how many copies you and Klaus are selling to know if it would even be worth such an effort. I also don't know if this "someone" could be Klaus - I don't see any of the classical orchestral samples in his other sample collections, they all seem to be more geared towards symphonic sound effects. But he did put some orchestral strings in the Samples packages, so I don't know what he has stored up somewhere... Please don't think that I'm not happy and/or grateful for the things that you have done for the Fusion community, Steve! And I do think the Fusion is the best workstation out there, for what I want to do. I might just get me a Kurz PC2R-O (with orchestral expansion) down the road... they're getting cheaper and cheaper.
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Post by kpr on Jul 18, 2008 18:37:06 GMT
Usually I don´t announce upcoming sample library releases. What I can say is that I listen very carefully to the Fusion owners and what is on demand. All my current titles in the still growing Fusion sound products line considered this. Of course I have my own ideas and plans, but Steve remembers the mention of unusual sounds and I told here that I did something, but wasn´t sure if there was interest. So especially Steve encouraged me to make this venture complete and I went to the release version. The result was OTHERWORLD. This is the very best example that we´re a kind of answer > reply team here and although I´m in the sound business since so many years this is the most exciting one. Usually there is an inhouse team or a factory voicing team, but all this happens in secret locations and under NDA conditions. What we do here is a kind of public sound product development and this feels great, I guess for every Fusion owner as well as for the professional sound developer as we are this. Having said this you can check my bitr website for the range of sample libraries I already did. It´s a lot of stuff and covers acoustic instruments as well as technoid loops etc. etc. As I did so many sample recording session over the years I have an additional recording archive with still unreleased samples. It´s large, and the content is a secret. Also I cooperated with a lot of people and companies to realize all those very expensive recordings. In the most cases I had to pay for studio rent and performers including entire orchestras and sometimes even for the access to specific rare instruments (gas to go to far away locations to record them) and as well my own time. So. What does this mean for the Fusion sound product line at bitr? A lot. Surely it always depends on the demand, but as you can see in the other forum I also picked some special Korg DS8 samples from the Korg Universe series, converted them and sent them as download link to one Fusionist. I did need a day to make it. This means that I´m open for a lot of ideas. Some might be realized an a while, some on the spot. When I have interest in a thing, then I´ll so something, that´s for sure. This is why I followed this thread with major interest and I got a lot of informations. Be sure that something will happen. I don´t make promises when and what though. But this is a kind of extra fun for us all. I really always love the moment to come up with the typical kpr posting: "New: Now available ....." It´s thrilling. And usually I did everything, the sample selection, editing, format conversion, library organisation, mp3 audio tracks, upload to the server. And then waiting for the response. It´s fantastic! Cheers Klaus
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Post by Hollow Sun on Jul 18, 2008 20:20:01 GMT
I don't know how many copies you and Klaus are selling to know if it would even be worth such an effort. That's the problem. As enjoyable as it is making these sounds (and as Klaus says, it is thrilling to release them), it's a lot of work and isn't worth the effort if you hardly sell anything after it's released. That can actually be quite depressing! Please don't think that I'm not happy and/or grateful for the things that you have done for the Fusion community, Steve! I don't think that at all Chris. Not a problem. Steve
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Post by Chief Big Smoke on Jul 18, 2008 21:27:07 GMT
Although it seems to have taken a different direction than the original post by psionic11 (by the ways, ‘thanks’ to you for getting this going), I've been anxious to see what people have to contribute. To begin with… Can enough dedicated programming take a stock sample, say any of those in the Fusion ROM, Preset 5, or even the HS samples, and turn out a really great approximation of the vintage classics? In my opinion, the answer is 'yes.' I do believe no amount programming will make the Fusion BECOME another instrument. However, I believe it has the potential to be a "great approximation" of these boards under virtually any practical circumstance. Where I think this thread has ended up… I think between the stock and Hollow Sun samples/sounds, there are some terrific vintage Rhodes and Wurlis. I’m not as consumed with the Clav sounds, but I consider that more a function of my relative lack of obsession with Clavs, in general. That said, I think there are a few in the current batch that can hold they're own, too. In the end, I think an expanded library of vintage keyboards would be a tremendous addition to the Fusion. Again, I’m not writing this to undermine the quality of the current available samples (I think they’re wonderful). I’m just putting my opinion out there so that those who are more likely to make something like this happen will know that the interest is out there, especially seeing as how this thread has changed direction. Thanks
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christianrock
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Post by christianrock on Jul 18, 2008 22:23:50 GMT
Steve, I am surprised that Nebulae didn't do better than you are describing. I haven't ever heard of anyone in any forum that has got it that didn't rave about it. Obviously I haven't seen that many people who got it, but those who did said it's phenomenal. My guess is that pads is already the one thing that the Fusion has the most of all, so a lot of people might have thought "more pads? I don't need more pads... there's other stuff I need more". Pianos, vintage synths/eps and orchestral are always the libraries that sell the most. And according to Roland, drums I guess - they usually come out with a drum library before anything else. The people I have talked to that have Fusions have generally been satisfied with the drums (I personally would like more options) and the quality of all the Hollow Sun packages, but generally agree that the rompler portion of the Fusion is below workstation standard - especially orchestral, percussion and ethnic instruments. Also EPs, but I don't think anyone I've talked to yet has the KPR samples. I promised a few people on Harmony Central a review once I have spent some time on the packages I have bought recently (all BITR samples, Nebulae, VStream). I don't know if that'll help, but I'm pretty enthusiastic about this synth and I haven't really been shy about it.
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christianrock
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Post by christianrock on Jul 18, 2008 22:47:49 GMT
Oh and I'm looking forward to another "I couldn't help it so I did it again!" post from you, Klaus What could it be? Samples 4? Korg Library? Orchestral? Drums and Percussion? Sorry, just speculating By the way, I do hope that your collections are getting a good response from the Fusion community as far as sales. I think you mentioned that piano has done particularly well in some thread a while back.
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Post by mps on Jul 19, 2008 2:58:02 GMT
According to the documentation in Logic the electric piano that JPJ used in Led Zeppelin was a Hohner, not a Wurly. Who knew? OK, besides Steve. You know piano sounds seem to be the one thing that no two keyboard players can agree on. You can get very precious over details and subtle nuance. Then you go out to a gig and try to get over the top of a drum set and 120 watt guitar amp. All gone. I suppose in recording these details can be more important than in a live situation.
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Post by psionic11 on Jul 19, 2008 8:42:07 GMT
I've been following this thread from the beginning and learning a lot. Sometimes I would compose a reply post, but then think again, nahh, I didn't have anything really to add or ask. But one of the things that struck me was HS's dismay over disappointing sales. A few hours later, I stumbled onto something that I should have discovered long ago; a Hollowsun Rhodes sampleset: www.hollowsun.com/vintage/rhodes/index.htmlThat leads to 2 great mp3 demos showcasing a variety of "vintage-era" sounds: www.zero-g.co.uk/media/mp3/l/8/Nostalgia_Demo_1.mp3www.zero-g.co.uk/media/mp3/e/9/Nostalgia_Demo_2.mp3ZOMG....Ok, this is basically hijacking my own thread.... I saved up to buy Nebulae (which I really like) when priority allowed, but somehow I had no idea that Hollow Sun has this huge back catalog of sooo many samples and sounds that can be put into the Fusion. /smacks forehead PPG (wavetable synthesis): www.hollowsun.com/cds/ppg_page.htmlCP70 (vintage Yamaha stage piano): www.hollowsun.com/cds/ppg_page.htmlFS1R (meaty Yamaha FM synthesis): www.hollowsun.com/cds/fs1r_page.htmlAnd each one of these comes with great mp3 demos!! Dear Reader, do yourself a favor and check out these demos... Steve, I'm guilty, you're guilty, we're all guilty of not exposing everyone to enough of the HS collections... Seriously, I don't know if it's the admirable humble British attitude when it comes to self-promotion or what, but seriously, we need to go on a marketing blitz for you! The major obstacle I see, concerning the Fusion community, is pre-packaging your extensive sample collections into a format that's instantly and easily attainable by your average Fusioneer.... Nebulae is the only package that comes Fusion-ready, and not surprisingly it's the only package that was advertised to me as a Fusion owner (and given away free for a good portion of Sweetwater Fusion owners). No wonder HS's other offerings get no love... only through curious searching did I discover your other packages, and I consider myself an above-avid Fusion user. I bet most Fusioneers have no idea what your premier samples can do for their beloved keyboard... on the cheap, too, less expensive and more expansive than Roland SRX cards or Yamaha PLG cards or whatever cheese Korg puts out as expansion capability... Both kpr and Vstream have done quite well with anticipated promotion of their samplesets. It's probably old news to you, but to many of us, Hollow Sun needs more and constant promotion of its quality products. Make these easily accessible for us many quiet Fusioneers (read: package the samplesets as downloadable Banks purchaseable thru PayPal), and I think you may make many people very happy all at once -- yourselves as well as the Fusion community... It's the least we can do for the Godfathers of the Fusion phenomenon.
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Post by Hollow Sun on Jul 19, 2008 11:22:05 GMT
But one of the things that struck me was HS's dismay over disappointing sales. Not dismay, psi - far from it. Just pragmatic acceptance that sounds don't sell well these days. I do ok out of it and fortunately have plenty of other paying work such that I don't rely on CD sales. Yes, you'd think with all the people out there making music - from teenage dabblers to hardened pros - that they'd be queueing round the block to buy sounds to feed their instruments. Not so especially when the prevailing attitude these days is 'free' - visit some (a lot of) music forums and the most FAQ is "Where can I get XYZ sounds for free?". And we're not talking a door slam, a car horn or maybe a bass guitar - they want entire orchestra sample sets AND a Steinway grand piano. And even if someone points them to a reasonable set for, say, $25, it's claimed to be too expensive P2P networks and dodgy soundfont sites, etc., help promote the 'everything for free' attitude. Make these easily accessible for us many quiet Fusioneers (read: package the samplesets as downloadable Banks purchaseable thru PayPal), and I think you may make many people very happy all at once The thing is, you and all Fusioneers already have these sounds by way of Alesis' free downloads or the HS FreePacks.... You have the CP70, the Trons, a selection of choice PPG sounds and a good chunk of the 'best of' the M01, FS1R and M1000. I bundle my Wurli, Rhodes, Clav, Pianet and RMI electric pianos with the CP70 CD and you have all those as well. You also have a bunch of stuff not released on those CDs that were prepared especially for Fusion. And there's 'Nebulae' of course. There's also a good chunk of stuff from 'Nostalgia' in the various releases as well such as the beatbox, Emu and Fairlight sounds. As such, it would be pretty pointless me spending time making all those sounds available to buy in Fusion format - you already have 'em. Steve
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Post by kpr on Jul 20, 2008 17:01:59 GMT
Hollow Sun needs more Program Presets. This stuff is so fantastic that it´s a pity to see so few Program Presets. Considering the number of existing Program Presets based on the internal ROM samples I can image about 1000 or way more Program Presets based on all the HS samples. Someone should do it. Unfortunately I don´t know a good Fusion Program creator ;D Christian, I´m fine with the sales of my commercial Fusion product line. But I´m also fine with the FREE requests. We got HUNDREDS OF HUNDREDS of requests for those new free sounds and this means that the Fusion is popular all over the world. And I don´t have any plans to stop my activity for the Fusion. Next kpr Fusion sound product will be another happening for us all, be sure that Cheers Klaus
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ray
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Post by ray on Jul 21, 2008 5:56:40 GMT
Steve -- thanks for the tip. I'll get back to you when I get a chance to try those changes. Christian -- I'm well aware of KPR's work, I'm a customer. I just don't have any of their collections which feature new EP samples, that's all I was saying. The result was OTHERWORLD. This is the very best example that we´re a kind of answer > reply team here and although I´m in the sound business since so many years this is the most exciting one. Usually there is an inhouse team or a factory voicing team, but all this happens in secret locations and under NDA conditions. What we do here is a kind of public sound product development and this feels great, I guess for every Fusion owner as well as for the professional sound developer as we are this. Would just like to add that many of us are enjoying this aspect of some recent developments as well. Some of us have musical ideas but not the programming or sampling ability. We're normally scampering around, hunting for sounds that resemble what we have in mind and settling for something remotely similar. On the other hand, I speak for at least myself that we understand we are merely making suggestions and it is up to you guys (the developers) to decide on what is most feasible to spend time/money/effort on developing. As a software programmer myself, I know how common it is for some forums to get overly demanding ("do exactly this! listen to me!") and essentially request custom development, without expecting to pay a custom fee. I think (and it seems to me, from the posts I've seen) that most of us here understand we're merely throwing ideas in the air for you guys to ponder and I hope we can maintain this level of open discussion. My guess is that pads is already the one thing that the Fusion has the most of all, so a lot of people might have thought "more pads? I don't need more pads... there's other stuff I need more". Pianos, vintage synths/eps and orchestral are always the libraries that sell the most. Here's my 2 cents (please accept my apologies to be so bold to claim an opinion here, I do realize the experience of people here in the samples industry far exceeds my right to say - but I hope to merely jot down some observation as a consumer). There's currently a great demand in accurate simulations of classic keyboard based instruments with portability/convenience in mind - be it an acoustic grand piano, an upright piano, electric piano, hammond organs, moogs, etc. I think the age of these instruments have gotten to a point where each of them have been established as instruments in their own right, the original design quirks and flaws are all considered part of what defines that instrument as much as the sound of a plectrum striking a string, or fingers moving across strings, are part of the sound of an acoustic guitar. In my humble opinion, the current trend of sample libraries that get the most publicity seem to be those that target this. People seem willing to pay for this if they consider it to be the most true-to-life available. Ivory and Scarbee seems to get by with hefty price tags (then again, they do play the numbers game - people love to pay by the gigabyte!) Publicity plays a large part I think... and in the keyboard playing circles I've frequented, shoot-outs are common: people compare recordings made from the same MIDI file, and determine what they prefer. It gives people a very clear side-by-side comparison of quality. A little old but well known site which hosted digital piano comparisons are here: purgatorycreek.com/English/Digital_Piano_Shootout.htmlWhile many recent trends point towards the PC bloatware libraries, there's a revival of interest around Kurzweil at the moment which I think is quite interesting. Their new range of keyboards (the PC3 series mainly) doesn't even include any new samples that were not previously available in their keyboards from the 90s - yet they manage to stir up alot of public interest and attention simply from new programming (and admittedly, improved hardware). There are forums filled with people raving about the PC3 piano and comparing it to Ivory, etc. Here's Kurzweil's own shoot-out site for piano/EP sounds (these were prior to PC3 actually so the sounds are a little old): listentokeyboards.com/What I think is interesting about this is that people are starting to come back around to understanding that "it's not the size of the samples - it's how you use it". But people want different sounds from the same samples. And the majority of the sample buying public are not sound programming-literate enough to tweak and fiddle it to their liking. Perhaps this is the great change in recent years, with what Steve suggested there being more people making music - that the new generation (and even some of the older ones) are less versed in programming sounds and need more presets that get us what we want? I wonder if it might really be as simple as that. As psionic11 implied, he probably didn't find the existing Rhodes sound in the Fusion to sound exactly the same as those in the (non-Fusion) HS Rhodes set. I haven't listened to that demo for some time (I've been aware of it in the past and had already known that most of the samples were ported over for the Fusion packs) so I'll have to revisit when I get home, but - even though they're probably using the same samples, chances are the programs are different enough that we struggled to get the sound we wanted. KPR's right... more program presets may well go a long way to bringing a new lease of life to the existing samples.
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