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Post by logickle on Feb 24, 2008 2:07:54 GMT
Hi, all. I'd like to get back into making my own music (once upon a time I had a QS8) and am looking seriously at getting a Fusion (haven't decided whether 61 or 88 key). Before I take the plunge though, a question. Maybe I'm missing something simple, but I don't understand why, if I only work on music at home (no gigging), would I need an integrated workstation nowadays? I.e. given what computers can do synthesis-, sequencing-, and editing-wise, why not just use a midi keyboard and a PC? I noticed alot of you have PCs and workstations (and a lot of other gear to boot ) Wouldn't it be cheaper, and possibly even easier to use, just having a decent midi kb, and using the $$ saved to get some really good sequencing & software synth packages? Thanks for your advice, Doug
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Post by ajmuso on Feb 24, 2008 11:56:18 GMT
Hi,
Probably a question only you can answer!..
but in my opinion...
in terms of cost a fusion 6hd is much cheaper than buying a midi keyboard a decent PC or mac and some good software...
but that said the fusion wont do as much as the above....
what a workstation is good for, and reason i got one... is imediacy.. you just turn it on and play.... you can write a song... create a sound... whatever... you dont have to configure a plug in.. you dont need to wait for a PC to boot (the fusion isnt istantanious i grant you)..
the Idea of having one device (fusion) to create a studio quality recordings is a noble one.. but in reality not true.. you will probably need the above mentioned PC and software AND a good workstation/keyboard...
for me the idea of a Keyboard/workstation has allways been as a toolbox.... and the Fusion simply has a lot of great tools in the box... you may be able to get those tools in software....but it allways seems overly complex.
cheers
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Post by narkedshreddie on Feb 24, 2008 19:12:39 GMT
Ajmuso has summed things up pretty well IMO but here's my 2 pennies! It depends on how you like to make your music. A few years back I had nothing but hardware. Then about 2 years ago, I bought a ton of software. Now I'm going for a "best of both worlds" approach. Software can be incredibly versatile but may be slow to use especially if you like creating your own sounds. It can also be very difficult to keep running reliably in the long term as computer upgrades and software updates can sometimes cause more problems than they solve. On the whole, hardware is more stable and faster to use than the "in the box" approach. Hardware will also have a re-sale value should you decide to sell it in the future. The same can't necessarily be said of software. Hardware may have restricted options in comparison to some software but all too often I find that the massive array of options in software to be overwhelming so in my opinion having a few restrictions can be a great aid to the creative process. Something like a Fusion would be great if you want to get your ideas down quickly, you can then transfer the MIDI and audio to your PC for more "in depth" work if you wish. As for the Fusion Vs controller idea. If the quality of the keybed is important to you, you'd be hard pushed to find a dumb 88 note weighted controller that has an action of a quality which is comparable to that of the 8HD at a similar price. So with the 8HD you're practically getting a decent controller plus a very powerful hardware workstation synth for free!! If you're looking for a software sequencer, I can't recommend Reaper enough. It's very well featured and for the price, it's unbeatable. I've also found it to be the most reliable piece of music software I have ever owned. Best of luck to you whatever your choices. The gear thing... erm yeah... It's called gearlust. It's a well documented psychological phenomenon which, in extreme cases, may have similarities to kleptomania.
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Post by logickle on Mar 2, 2008 1:48:03 GMT
Thanks for your replies!
So the dedicated workstation vs. DAW question seems to boil down to two things:
- Immediacy - how quickly can I get my ideas out with the tool - Directness - the tool's features are designed for a particular purpose
Since I already have a capable-enough PC, and I'd get some kind of DAW anyway (thanks for the Reaper tip, BTW - WOW! Esp. for the price - it's almost a gift!!), the question for me is "is the Fusion worth the extra $$ over an 88 key weighted MIDI controller"? For example, I've read good things about the Studiologic SL990XP, which can be had for about $350 - quite a bit less than Sweetwater's best Fusion price of $900 (SW's the only place I'd get the Fusion).
To the question of immediacy, if you stand-by or hibernate your PC with your DAW and other audio apps configured and running, doesn't it come back to the ready pretty quickly? Or is that just wishful thinking?
To the point about directness, maybe the right DAW would have intelligent default settings, so the complexity and exotic features are hidden 'til you need them? I don't know yet, I'm just scratching the surface reading about and playing with Reaper vs. Cubase vs. Magix vs. ... Just wondering.
One thing occurred to me reading about what these modern DAWs can do: with multi-CPU computers with GBs of RAM and HD space available for cheap now, maybe Alesis didn't just kill the Fusion because of its problems and consequent bad rap. Maybe it was a strategic decision as well based on pessimism about the future of dedicated workstations?? Just a thought.
Anyway, thanks again for your posts. I'm still mulling all this info, so I'd greatly appreciate any more thoughts you have!
Doug
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Post by Hollow Sun on Mar 2, 2008 3:13:15 GMT
DAWs are great things to be sure but they are dependent on so many things and therefore prone to trouble. I frequent a few forums and I am forever seeing problems reported (the latest I've have literally just seen is that for no reason, some user can't get any sound out of his DAW now!). I see sync problems, clicks in audio, plug-ins not found not to mention latency and whatever else.
I had a brief foray into Logic a while back - took me DAYS to set up (my MPC worked right out the box). I also dabbled with Kontakt and was actually quite impressed until, mid-way though a project, the thing suddenly started crashing (complete computer lock up) every time it received a MIDI note. I never did sort that out - working one day, not working the next ... and nothing had changed!!
Maybe my problems are unusual (I don't think so) and maybe I am too hide-bound and 'old skool' but 'traditional' musos wouldn't put up with this crap. For example, a pianist is rehearsing on a perfectly good piano one day; the next day he lifts the lid and there's no sound or it is wildly out of tune or some notes don't work ... or a violinist takes his fiddle out of the case one day and all the strings have just disappeared (maybe not the best analogies but whatever).
I am not saying that hardware is without fault but I can honestly say that I have bits of gear here that are 10 or 15 years old that still work perfectly. You can't say that for much (if any) software). My Mac OS has been updated countless times but being totally independent of that, the hardware soldiers on. You can't say that for most (all?) software, I/Os, etc..
And I like the immediacy of hardware - switch it on and within 30 seconds or less, you're playing. And I like the fact that it's all in front of you (me) and the facts that the buttons and knobs, etc., are in the same place all the time. Thus I develop 'muscle memory' and can almost operate the things without even looking. You can't say that for software UIs where windows and menus can be anywhere on the screen and you're hunting around for functions with a mouse (assuming the functions you want are actually in the window that has the focus!).
If you think that the DAW approach is the best for you (economically and/or ergonomically) then go for it and be happy. It's just not for me ... and others too.
I'm with Shreddie on this and have a 'best-of-both-worlds' approach using the tools (be they hardware or software) appropriate for the task.
And Alesis haven't withdrawn Fusion due to "a strategic decision ... based on pessimism about the future of dedicated workstations" ... there IS a market for dedicated hardware products and keyboards/workstations. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is creating music on computers ... those people are just a microcosm of users posting to forums on the same computers they use to make their music thus giving the impression that they are the majority. The fact is that for every one of them, there are probably ten or more people playing and gigging in pro and semi-pro bands who have no time for forums and just want a piece of gear they can switch on and play. Just look at this forum.....
There are (literally) thousands of Fusion users out there, we have 428 members of which only a handful actually post ... I get emails from lots of Fusion users who don't even know that forums such as this exist and furthermore, aren't interested!
Assuming Fusion is discontinued (and there is no 'official' word that it has been), it will be for one thing and one thing alone.....
It is not profitable.
But I dunno - I am speculating here... even at these rock-bottom prices, Alesis and their distributors and dealers might all be making a buck or two so it might be worthwhile for them to continue with it even at the current silly prices. It wouldn't be a first for them... as an example, the HD24 is still current (and selling well as I understand it) many years since it was released presumably because there's be a market for it even in these days of CuBase, ProTools and Logic.
We shall see. In the meantime, don't dismiss hardware - there are still many advantages to be had from a dedicated piece of gear that does what it says on the tin and which is impervious to the whims of other parties' OS updates, drivers, patches, kludgy fixup downloads (assuming the website is working and you can remember your registration details to qualify for the update, blah, blah, blah ... or you have an on-line account set up to pay for the upgrades, etc.).
Just my thoughts of course. You should pursue whatever is best for you. And good luck and have fun.
Steve
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Post by logickle on Mar 2, 2008 15:29:31 GMT
Thanks for your thoughts, Steve. I'm not dissing dedicated hardware (I'm not knowledgeable enough yet, for one thing , just thinking aloud about how things have changed and where they might be heading. Ditto for speculating why Alesis discontinued the Fusion. (It may not be official, but quite a few vendors have dropped it, and the others have it on clearance, including Sweetwater. SW's sales engineer confirmed to me once their current stock is gone, that's it. Even on Alesis' own website, you can only buy refurbished. Despite all that, though, Alesis still lists the Fusion as a current rather than legacy product. Go figure.) I hear what you're saying about DAW stability. Poking around in forums and reading reviews I've come across plenty of reports of even $$ products such as Cubase acting up. So far Reaper has been flawless for me, but others have had problems. Magix Music Maker, despite seeming to provide alot for the $, has crashed on me. (To be fair, though, even dedicated HW crashes sometimes.) So I'm still dithering about which way to go. It's not DAW vs. Workstation, it's DAW + WS vs. DAW + controller (or maybe + a keyboard with some built-in sounds) - as you say, "best of both worlds". If I did go with the Fusion, I'd sure be more comfortable knowing that the OS will be updated - not just with bug fixes, but with new features. Thanks again for your thoughts, Doug
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Post by Hollow Sun on Mar 2, 2008 17:41:24 GMT
If I did go with the Fusion, I'd sure be more comfortable knowing that the OS will be updated - not just with bug fixes, but with new features Well I think it's fair to say that that ain't ever gonna happen! Steve
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Post by gwenhwyfaer on Mar 2, 2008 18:42:47 GMT
Even on Alesis' own website, you can only buy refurbished. Despite all that, though, Alesis still lists the Fusion as a current rather than legacy product. Go figure. That's easily answered; Alesis only sell refurbished versions of any of their products on their website. I suspect that if they tried to sell new versions, they'd very quickly find themselves without a dealer network. For obvious reasons. Moreover, even if a company decides it isn't going to make any more of a product, it is highly unlikely to announce that it is discontinued whilst it still has several thousand of them sitting in a warehouse. Which features in particular do you feel the Fusion is missing, that you want to see an OS update fix?
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